Curse

Lethal Primate · Jan 23, 2011, 12:17 PM // 12:17

So i've been trying slavers' HM H/H now and I'm having some trouble with forgewights dungeon. So far I've used meta hero builds (sort of). The trouble is that even with SY and prots the team is still fragile and 1 mistake is the end of me (and the others). Now I've made my paragon into somewhat of a tank because aggresive refrain just makes me target practice.
Now I know that there are ppl out there who can just easly do this dungeon (yes I've seen you guys bragging) and now I'm wondering what kind of heroes/tactics you guys use.
I used these 2 hero set ups (at least with the most success) and me pulling aggro/tanking (sort of).
I'm verry interested to see how you guys beat this dungeon or if you have any tips for me on how to beat this dungeon.

P.S. I refuse to use cons beceause I want to able to beat everything on HM with H/H.

Xenomortis · Jan 23, 2011, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Your name is familiar.

I'm really not sure how I would proceed as a Paragon. I know how I would on a Mesmer and Necromancer, there are at least two decent options to me as an Ele and I have some ideas on how to proceed as a melee physical.

When things do go bad it's important you understand why you died and try to identify what killed you. Are your heroes and henchmen all getting nuked at once? If so, are you flagging out properly?
If you are who I think you are then you were with me in a full human team to kill Forgewight yesterday and there you would have seen the importance and effectiveness of proper aggro techniques and positioning.

Sifting through my one thousand screenshots, I found these two:
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9...tcleared01.jpg
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/6...tcleared02.jpg

Neither one is of a particularly good or smooth run. The first one is a screenshot of my first clear (1:17

) where I fought basically every mob (you can safely ignore several on the way to the Keeper) and I had a horrendous time getting shrine-camped by one of the mobs past the dungeon door.
The second screenshot is of a later clear - the slow time (50 minutes zzz) was due to wipes in places I really shouldn't be wiping and with DP, I spent about 10 minutes preparing for Forgewight himself.
No consumables of any type were ever used.

But some advice applicable to all of PvE when H/Hing:
Flag your heroes apart. This can be such a huge help since it prevents you from getting instantly overwhelmed - if you do nothing else, do this.
Don't invest in significantly more defense than you need.

Looking briefly over your setup, I would say you don't have enough damage - particularly in the second setup. One spirit spammer, one splinter weapon, a few minions, Mistrust and Chaos Storm.
I suggest changing the minion master for a SoGM Rit. MMs are good in general, but are questionable here (hard to keep minion count up and thery're blown up very quickly).
Your Mesmer bar needs a few changes I think. The bar my Mes has in the second picture posted is fine, but in your case; replace PI for Panic. Wastrel's Demise and Chaos Storm don't do all that much and you're going to need the prot.

But one of the bigger issues is the lack of damage you do. You have no attack skills and Flurry reduces damage.
You shouldn't need To the Limit, Dwarven Stability and Stand Your Ground. If you're getting hit you can have a hero put Prot Spirit on you and that'll stop you getting instantly killed.
That said, I don't have much experience playing paragons or H/Hing with them.

It'd probably be worth investing in a few heals on your heroes (like on the SoS Rit) - that way your henchmen healers don't get overwhelmed.

But don't worry about finding this difficult. Forgewight is a hard dungeon compared to the rest of PvE. Even compared to the rest of Slaver's; Forgewight is hard. H/Hing it in HM requires some experience and finesse and largely good builds.

There are some other threads on the issue. Jeydra has a few based on an Ele doing it and there's a Warrior H/H guide written by someone with a fairly distinct H/H style. It might be worth reading those, even if you're trying it on a Paragon.

Missing HB · Jan 23, 2011, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Hello,
The problem with your builds for that dungeon is that you will require cons . Why? Because spirits and minions will die very fast to heavy aoe spam, and thus to counter that you need make sure you kill fast and henchs are able to support once all minions are out. Minions can eventually be taken although many mobs don't have corpse , but spirits aren't such a good idea..

Considering you're paragon and refuse to use cons , i will give you my team build i used on it :
I did play W/P with asura scan and i am the strongest + vekk sf ele + zhed sf ele + taklora normal healer with HB. In fact , i had power drain and leech sig on every hero and that's what made the difference. As long as you're able to micro or control heroes nice , there will almost never be massive aoe spammed on you...I'm not saying it's the best build ( it's probably not ) but it's how i did every single dungeon HM...

You shouldn't have any problem to get to end boss that way, however the boss in itself is a bit complicated, because luring is kinda hard. I would suggest you to bring some candy canes, since it's pointless if you're below 30% DP...

Xenomortis · Jan 23, 2011, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Hello,
The problem with your builds for that dungeon is that you will require cons . Why? Because spirits and minions will die very fast to heavy aoe spam, and thus to counter that you need make sure you kill fast and henchs are able to support once all minions are out. Minions can eventually be taken although many mobs don't have corpse , but spirits aren't such a good idea..

Total bullshit.
I've just given two screenshots of me having completed Forgewight with spirits and minions without having used consumables. Feel free to not believe me, but I think I took an inventory screenshot at the start of my first run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

You shouldn't have any problem to get to end boss that way, however the boss in itself is a bit complicated, because luring is kinda hard. I would suggest you to bring some candy canes, since it's pointless if you're below 30% DP...

The boss is not the hardest part of the dungeon. In fact, if you've made it that far and didn't repeatedly wipe on the mob beforehand you shouldn't struggle.
And hitting 30% DP isn't all that catastrophic. With proper luring you can still proceed (long pulls are a savior at high DP).
In fact, on my first clear I got shrine camped by a mob (described earlier); and despite everyone having at least 30 DP (all heroes had more than 45 and the henchmen were probably no better) I cleared the dungeon.
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/7...tshrinecam.jpg

Besides, if you use DP removal you don't get to say you can do the dungeon H/H without consumables.

Balistic Pve · Jan 23, 2011, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Here's something.

If you do the first 4 bosses in NM, and do Duncan in NM, it will show up in your NM book.
However if you do the first 4 bosses in nm and do Duncan in HM, it will show up in your HM book.
Go ahead and try it yourself, and don't try to kill yourself doing this.

Cheers

itiscurtains · Jan 24, 2011, 07:48 AM // 07:48

I just recently h/h-ed Forgewight HM on my para. It wasn't necessarily pretty, but neither was it as bad as I was expecting. I ran a pretty standard Spiritway team with a few modifications here and there. This was my Imba's build: OQGjUqmIKTDZxgjYylXFpbqi4YA. I made sure to take Hexbreaker Aria - one of my favorite utility skills - and Pain Inverter. I was also using Drunken Master for an IAS, but since you don't want to use any cons (Does booze count? It's the only consumable I used) either flurry or AR should be fine, in which case you can drop Merciless Spear for "TNTF!". In retrospect, I really should have had "TNTF!" on my bar, but I am just too enamored with Drunken Master at the moment.
Other than that, as Xeno said, flagging is key. It prevents a lot of needless wipes. Looking briefly at your hero setups, I would recommend dropping SoC from the ST bar. ST + Boon of Creation should be sufficient energy management, provided that you micro your spirits before aggro. You can replace SoC with another spirit, and actually I would replace the rez with another spirit as well.
Another thing about Spiritway that I usually change is the prots on the Minion Bomber. Without a dedicated frontliner in your party - unless you're running a warrior henchie - I'm not sure Prot Spirit and SoA are all that necessary. Especially with "SY!". I typically keep Aegis and use the remaining two skill slots for condition/hex removal.

Life Bringing · Jan 24, 2011, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by itiscurtains

I'm not sure Prot Spirit and SoA are all that necessary.

Never, ever remove Prot spirit from your hero team. It is the most important skill your heroes can bring when trying to get through a difficult area. SoA is right up there as well

Xenomortis · Jan 24, 2011, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by itiscurtains

Another thing about Spiritway that I usually change is the prots on the Minion Bomber. Without a dedicated frontliner in your party - unless you're running a warrior henchie - I'm not sure Prot Spirit and SoA are all that necessary. Especially with "SY!". I typically keep Aegis and use the remaining two skill slots for condition/hex removal.

Protective Spirit is the third most powerful protection skill in the game and is more reliable than the two above (Protective Bond and Shelter).
It is the only skill that can be slotted on most any caster hero that can prevent the near instant death offered by many PvE bosses and several regular enemies that can be encountered.
For example, being hit by 3 copies of Energy Surge followed by Energy Burn - Save Yourselves isn't going to do shit against that. And of course, the 200 damage Rodgort's Invocation you can expect to be hit with (SY doesn't affect you remember, and that thing can be casting before most people can get Save Yourselves off) is reduced to 50-60 (and every other high damage skill thereafter, like the Searing Flames being cast now) with a simple 10 energy spell.

Aegis is probably the second most powerful prot you can easily slot on a hero. After that it's a toss-up between SoA and Spirit Bond.

Jeydra · Jan 24, 2011, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balistic Pve

Here's something.

If you do the first 4 bosses in NM, and do Duncan in NM, it will show up in your NM book.
However if you do the first 4 bosses in nm and do Duncan in HM, it will show up in your HM book.
Go ahead and try it yourself, and don't try to kill yourself doing this.

Cheers

That works until 1) you get a Forgewight ZB you want to do in HM or 2) you get so good at the game you want to test your hands at the hardest areas available. Forgewight HM is pretty clearly the single hardest area in the game to which you can bring henchmen to H/H.

@topic - I salute you for bravely trying to do this dungeon

So ...

First: I'd recommend against using a MM in this dungeon. It's not that the MM is a bad hero (he's certainly semi-usable here, and nowhere near as weak as he is in Shards of Orr). It's because of the low body count. Sure there are Stone Summit mobs against which the MM is great, but in between you have to face mobs with no minions available. This makes the MM questionable compared to a Mesmer. If I could bring 4 heroes, I'd probably take the MM, but the 7-hero update hasn't happened yet. On the other hand, I have done runs with the MM - this was before the Mesmer update - and they worked, so the MM is definitely a viable choice.

Two: you didn't mention the henchmen you used. If you're not already doing it, I'd suggest against using Cynn (because of the high armour vs. Fire in the dungeon). Mhenlo and Herta are easy shoo-ins. Beyond that, Lo Sha and Zho can provide some cover against the deadly Elementalists you'll face. However, recently Life Bringing got me thinking about whether or not Lo Sha is actually a good choice - Lo Sha's bar is extremely defensive, not to mention overlaps Gwen on Panic - so you might want to try Aidan or even Eve. I haven't played enough recently to tell the difference.

Three: I think your teambuild is unstable. You have an imbagon, but no heals on heroes. Mhenlo alone cannot cope with the damage from Forgewight HM. But if you use both Mhenlo and Lina, you'll also be short on damage (not to mention Lina hardly makes your team less fragile - the effect is noticable, but not significant). Both Lina and Mhenlo don't have party heals either. As such, I'd suggest you give one Rit some points in Restoration with Spirit Light / Mend Body And Soul / Kaolai. The last is particularly useful; heroes are very good with Kaolai.

I have no experience playing a Paragon, although based on my experience as an Elementalist I'd suggest you take a more damage-oriented build. As always, when you H/H, you have access to PvE-only skills and so can outdamage your H/H. It pays then to take an aggressive build and leave the defense to your team. I would suggest (take this with a pinch of salt - I have zero experience with a Paragon) stuff like Asuran Scan and Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support / Ebon Battle Standard of Honour on your bar.

Otherwise, I'd suggest taking a look at these threads and posts.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=70 - my finest H/H achievement ever. It can be done. 18 months on I'd probably switch Razah's and Xandra's Frozen Soil / Death Pact Signet. Not a good idea for a semi-healer to suddenly drop down dead, after all.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10447337.html - shameless self-advertising here, but the techniques of H/H are all important, especially in this area. I'd strongly recommend practising techniques 2-6 religiously, especially 4 and 5. Very important. Blink and the mobs in Forgewight HM will wipe you out.

One more tip. Take particular care with the mobs immediately after the Dungeon Lock. Some of them are on really long patrols, and if you wipe chances are you'll be shrine-camped. I would strongly recommend a long pull here (technique 6). Take your time. Completing the dungeon without consumables, regardless of time taken, is a strong feat.

PS: for posterity's sake - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...tml?t=10385769. Lol, things sure have changed since the early days of Spiritway.

@Prot Spirit / Aegis / Shield of Absorption - I think Prot Spirit is invaluable enough that I wouldn't go without it in any hard area. Aegis is close behind, with SoA a bit further back. Aegis is nice to have against massed physical damage (e.g. Charr Shadowblades). As for SoA, I think it's good and all, but no substitute for Prot Spirit. It lasts a lot shorter, too ...

Xenomortis · Jan 24, 2011, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Two: you didn't mention the henchmen you used. If you're not already doing it, I'd suggest against using Cynn (because of the high armour vs. Fire in the dungeon). Mhenlo and Herta are easy shoo-ins. Beyond that, Lo Sha and Zho can provide some cover against the deadly Elementalists you'll face. However, recently Life Bringing got me thinking about whether or not Lo Sha is actually a good choice - Lo Sha's bar is extremely defensive, not to mention overlaps Gwen on Panic - so you might want to try Aidan or even Eve. I haven't played enough recently to tell the difference.

Aidan doesn't really do all that much. Against the Summit I'd be inclined to say Cynn helps much more. I made my first attempt H/H it with a melee physical yesterday - Cynn saved me at least once after I messed up.
Zho doesn't do anything Lo Sha and the Panic hero don't already do.
That said, Lo Sha's only offensive spell is Ineptitude and I've never really seen him land a really good casting of it (but it's hard to spot anything cast by henchmen, apart than Cynn's Meteor Shower).

Lethal Primate · Feb 20, 2011, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Alright! I did it, finally. I've read all your comments and got some good ideas out of them. But the solution was so simple, yet I didn't see it. What do you use agains't casters? That's right mesmers

! 2 Psychic Instability where my key to success. The 2 heroes could keep any mob in their asses/shut down with rupts and other nasty spells. I didn't even wipe once, which shows how powerfull mesmer heroes are (I always underestimated them and only used them for fun). I would highly reccomend this caster set up as it can own any caster mob (and it can do some pretty nasty things to melee as well).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

There are some other threads on the issue. Jeydra has a few based on an Ele doing it and there's a Warrior H/H guide written by someone with a fairly distinct H/H style. It might be worth reading those, even if you're trying it on a Paragon.

Believe me, I've read it all. thx for the tips btw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Never, ever remove Prot spirit from your hero team. It is the most important skill your heroes can bring when trying to get through a difficult area. SoA is right up there as well

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balistic Pve

Here's something.

If you do the first 4 bosses in NM, and do Duncan in NM, it will show up in your NM book.
However if you do the first 4 bosses in nm and do Duncan in HM, it will show up in your HM book.
Go ahead and try it yourself, and don't try to kill yourself doing this.

Cheers

Seriously? What's the fun in that? (FYI I don't care about rewards anymore, I just want to pick a good fight).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Protective Spirit is the third most powerful protection skill in the game and is more reliable than the two above (Protective Bond and Shelter).
It is the only skill that can be slotted on most any caster hero that can prevent the near instant death offered by many PvE bosses and several regular enemies that can be encountered.
For example, being hit by 3 copies of Energy Surge followed by Energy Burn - Save Yourselves isn't going to do shit against that. And of course, the 200 damage Rodgort's Invocation you can expect to be hit with (SY doesn't affect you remember, and that thing can be casting before most people can get Save Yourselves off) is reduced to 50-60 (and every other high damage skill thereafter, like the Searing Flames being cast now) with a simple 10 energy spell.

Aegis is probably the second most powerful prot you can easily slot on a hero. After that it's a toss-up between SoA and Spirit Bond.

You're right and you're wrong, yes it's a powerfull protection skill that can be put on almost any caster (yet on few effectively). But the best protection skill is SY, there's just no other skill in game that can keep ppl alive better than SY can. (searing flames wasn't reduced to 10% of the health bar in terms of dmg, but by 90%, which imo is better). Of course energy surge is still the reason I had at least 1 copy, but thx to my heroess that spell didn't get cast all that often.

Dzjudz · Feb 20, 2011, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Yeah but PS prots against all damage, SY won't help you against Roaring Ether ESurge for example.

Edit: ah you said that already

.

Lethal Primate · Feb 20, 2011, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Yeah but PS prots against all damage, SY won't help you against Roaring Ether ESurge for example.

Edit: ah you said that already

.

yup, I figured you might say something like that

Daesu · Feb 21, 2011, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lethal Primate

That's right mesmers

! 2 Psychic Instability where my key to success. The 2 heroes could keep any mob in their asses/shut down with rupts and other nasty spells. I didn't even wipe once, which shows how powerfull mesmer heroes are (I always underestimated them and only used them for fun). I would highly reccomend this caster set up as it can own any caster mob (and it can do some pretty nasty things to melee as well).

Congratulations. Psychic Instability tends to be underrated though, so most people dont think well of it.

Gabs88 · Feb 21, 2011, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Racway does this fine as a paragon, thogh youre gonna want to grab Mhenlo

Lethal Primate · Feb 21, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Racway does this fine as a paragon, thogh youre gonna want to grab Mhenlo

Racway!? No it does not, it's a fun build to play with if you're bored (realy is), but it cannot stand against the dmg from all those elementals. It lacks serious dmg has no propper hex removal (and with soothing spam that is a problem) and there's no added defense over just spamming SY. Trust me I've tried racway, but once the going get's rough it just fails. I've you have used racway with success in forge HM and got a decent time/few wipes, plz post a picture to prove me wrong, cuz I have little faith in racway tbh.